467. HIGHLIGHT: From Zero to $64 Million: What It Actually Takes to Build a Mega Agency

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Watch the full episode on YouTube: HERE

What's in this episode:
Most agency owners assume that a bigger agency means less pressure. John Tunnell and Rena Gilliam prove otherwise. In this highlight episode, Michael and Courtney Weaver pull the most critical moments from two interviews with mega agency owners who built from scratch and share the real dynamics of scaling an insurance agency past $30 million. John went from zero to $64 million as a scratch agent. Rena runs a $38-plus million dollar agency with a team of just over 30. Both are brutally honest about what it costs.

[00:00] Big agencies and the pressure nobody talks about
[01:00] Meet JT and Rena: two mega agency owners
[02:00] JT on scaling from $11M to $64M in four years
[03:00] The producer who excels at $11M won't always at $64M
[05:00] Payroll pressure and the economics of scale
[07:00] Why pressure to perform grows as the agency grows
[09:00] EOS level 10 meetings and staying connected at scale
[11:00] Rena: promoting your best agent is a mistake
[13:00] The bottleneck between production and development
[14:00] Who do you actually promote? Watch who they follow
[15:00] Hiring leaders from inside vs. outside the agency
[16:00] The meeting test: watch the room not the presenter
[17:00] Development talks that keep agents from leaving
[18:00] What to do when your top producer wants to grow
[19:00] Installing a pure leader: how Rena structures the role

Want to watch their full episodes?  

457. How John Tunnell Built a 64 Million Dollar Insurance Agency (From Scratch)

437. Inside Rena Gilliam's $38M Agency: Leadership, Systems, and Scale

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

I think there's a stigma out there that j oh you have a huge agency, so you're just making a shit ton of money and it's like, well Yeah, but also no, like there is a ton of pressure for you to perform because you have so many more people on your team. Your expenses are so much larger that you have to perform to pay the bills. On today's highlight episode, I am super excited because we're going to be talking about mega agencies. John Tunnell, JT, went from zero to 64 million as a scratch agent. Renee Gillam runs a 38 plus million dollar agency growing every single month with a team of just a little over a 30. I am very excited because JT and Rednae both are extremely honest, transparent, tell you exactly what it takes, the chaos, the growth, the processes, and everything in between. With that being said, let's start the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

You went from 10 million or 11 million to 64 million in four years. Your team size, I would be curious the dynamics that shifted there and what you had to go through from like a leadership position. Like what's the team at 11 million versus what's the team at 64? And I'm saying this because if somebody has like for myself, I don't have a fear of failure. I actually have a fear of success. So when things start to get too big, I want to pull back because I'm like, ooh, that's gonna take more of me, that's gonna take more work, that's gonna take more money, that's gonna take more time. So talk a little bit about what 11 to 64 was like from a team dynamic and leadership and what that that took from you.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

That's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

So I can paint the picture of chaos, right? So it's like I I really do think 11 million dollar agency that my role was a lot more involved at that level. So I think as we scaled higher, I think the pressure kind of shifted more to the leadership team being accountable for some things when it's not working versus ultimately I am, but like you know, just being supportive if they make a bad hiring decision. Like I I told you so, Michael. I told you so, Courtney, you should never hire that person. Like you can't you can't do that. But I think where we saw, I think the biggest challenges is that you know, minimum expectations, what is our benchmark? What are we willing to accept? And as we brought in other agencies, it's challenged because different, you know, it there's a reason why an agency just kind of becomes stagnant and not investing and marketing, not growing, and then you know, we we we have to be okay with the change, but the hard part I think was just are these you know, as sad as it is, the person that was a great salesperson in an 11 million dollar agency is not always a great one in a 64 million, like you know, a 20-item producer might be great fit in some agencies, unfortunately. It doesn't kind of work in our environment just because of the investment that we have in leads, and you know, I I would say there's more of a pressure for an ROI to be positive in a larger agency than a smaller agency, um, is what I could probably equate to that. Leadership got messy because we would take, you know, if Courtney was in an agency that we took over, you know, whether it's right or wrong, my commitment was let's just bring them in, figure out if this is a good fit for our agency, keep them where they are in that role. It didn't always align with our core values, didn't align with kind of the fast pace of a busier agency. Um, and that's unfortunate because it's it's nothing against the person, it's just where they're at in their career and where we're going sometimes don't align. And I think for me, like I I really do genuinely like people, and I think it's hard because you see people that aren't gonna be a good fit in six months, and you can see the writing on the wall, like it's like it it stinks, it sucks, you know. It's like I want this person to work out, however, they're not capable of that type of growth that we're going to. So, to answer your question, I think we had more turnover, and I think you know, you just have to realize that being a larger agency, you're gonna have higher turnover just because you don't have the luxury of like you know, when your payroll, I mean it I I have higher payroll like on a bi-month monthly basis than I had probably in 10 years when I was a small agent. It's like, oh my gosh, like we gotta get everybody kind of aligned faster than possible. So I think to that also, it's like you know, we're not the right fit for every candidate out there in the licensed agent role. Like, it's like if you can't get up to speed quickly, unfortunately, we're not good whether you're LSP or a manager. So I think that was the biggest change, and you know, having more of an impact on growth, like at a bigger size, like you know, you're you're losing six-seven million dollars out the door in a year as is, just with normal decent retention, if you will. So I think that that you just have to be, I think, just not focused so much on the the numbers as closely, even though you have to, but use outside sources like you know, an accountant, an attorney. Um, I didn't have to think about that at a 10-11 million dollar. Like everything that we did, we could control momentum a lot faster than we can control now. Um but I guess the advantage if there's changes, you know, we can adapt to changes, we can add, we we have a lot of processes to provide a lot of leads a day. So if we need a scale back, we can do that quicker and probably you know we can cut not that you want to say this, but you want to say it like if something happened to like commission skills or something and it gets cut back, we can absorb that a lot easier than I could at 10 million. Because if I lose two producers, that might be my whole year at a 10 million dollar. If I lose two or three people here, it's like okay, more leads for everybody else at that point. So uh and I say that as kindly as I can. For sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Absolutely, yeah. That's just the economics of it. Like as you as you grow, you have more people to to spread that around.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Um, you've been, and I just want to say thank you for being very transparent with like you made a statement earlier, something to do with uh I wrote it down, I can't find it right now because I have a page full of notes, but the pressure to perform. Like your pressure to perform is greater now than it was at 10 or 11 million. And so and you just walked us through a lot of what you're going through on a day, week, monthly basis with some of the stressors, your leadership team, the decisions you're having to make, and I appreciate you saying this because I I think there's a stigma out there that j oh you have a huge agency, so you're just making a chit ton of money, and it's like, well Yeah, but also no, like there is a ton of pressure for you to perform because you have so many more people on your team, your expenses are so much larger that you have to perform to pay the bills. Now, yes, with a bigger size agency, you do have the ability to also maybe cut in other aspects that a smaller agency doesn't cut to get the cash that you would need to get, but those are also really tough decisions to make. Um, and so like there's nothing there's nothing easy about like your where you're at in your role, um, it looks a lot different than 10 and 11 million, but that doesn't mean it's even any easier. Like the decisions just get tougher. The role, in my experience, just gets tougher because of the decisions you have to make.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

And I think unfortunate because we have you know, we have a core leadership team, like we have uh right now seven people that help support, you know, and we do the level 10 meetings like from the EOS background, which basically means just I sit on on that, and that's kind of like where you know, I get up to speed on everything, so I still have a pulse on the agency, even though I'm not like in the you know, taking granny's uh payment talking about the cats anymore kind of environment. But I still get you know, hey, here's a customer highlight, here's a LSP highlight of the week, that kind of thing. So, um, but I think although that pressure, like my role is not to freak them out all the time, so it's like you know, oh my gosh, like we gotta cut back on this. You did you see this coming up? But I think it's it you have to be physically responsible, and I think it's important to have leadership that can be mature enough to understand, like, if you talk about a bill that we need to cut it back a little bit, that they can have the foresight to be like, okay, well, we're making decisions because we're looking six months out versus like today we're gonna have to cut people. Oh my gosh, I gotta go back and tell the whole team. Um, so it's just that emotional maturity, I think. And I I look at our core values, and like, you know, probably in 2010, I wasn't always that positive because I was in the day-to-day calls, and it's like you have to remind yourself a person needs so much love in that service chair, you know, because they're the ones that are taking the heat, and you have to remind yourself it's like, okay, can this person be positive and work in that role? What can we do to help support that through technology, through training? Technology training as you guys have a great product in that. Um, but just you know, just help them think differently and try to look through their eyes versus you know our eyes, and sometimes we just look at it as an expense where it's more of an investment in our team. So um, but I'm very fortunate to have leadership that A supports the vision, but B buys into it and understands their role in making it happen long term.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

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SPEAKER_01 12:07

Absolutely. Um, you know, I think a lot of times in agencies, there is you you end up with like almost an office manager. There's this role that you know a lot of people end up with an office manager, and usually it's your best agent. That's not necessarily your best leader. Can they they may not be able to influence? Um, so so that was something that was really difficult for me is I hired um well, I had my best agents. Yes, they were amazing at working with the customers and they could write business, but they weren't my best leaders. Um, so that was one of the things that it was a really big learning lesson for me, and it did bottleneck us for a while because I didn't want to lose those agents, but I had to almost backpedal them out of leadership once I really discovered, like, hey, this isn't for them. Good news, they really didn't like leading people, so that was an easy backpedal. Um, so they they actually still work for me and um they love what they do now, so that's wonderful. The second I would say is that you know, when you're when you're trying to figure out how to develop agents and and you're going, okay, I need to put somebody in to develop agents, but I need the production, you know. So when you when you're going, okay, like I really I don't have the resources to be able to pull somebody out of production, but they are definitely the person that I know should be listening to calls, should be holding people accountable toward for development. That was a that was a moment for me that was a little bit difficult.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Okay, so I'm hearing one consistent in both of these. Is so the very first one, and I don't know why this this has been around for a long time in the insurance space. It's just like, hey, you take your best producer and you turn them into like your team lead, your manager, and it's constant feedback. Like we've heard the same thing from multiple leaders, just like you, Renee, where it's like, actually, that is not the thing to do. It's usually like your mid-tier producer that has a really great, like great at what they do, but they may not be like that super just high energy or high motor type of producer. Um, I don't know if you would agree with that or not, but like that's kind of what I'm hearing is like you're it's not always so for you agents out there that may be growing in your business or you're about to promote someone within your business, the thing to do right now is not necessarily to take your top performer off the phone and actually have real conversations with an individual that you find as a not natural leader, but the one that most people gravitate to is what I always looked at in the business. Like, who where's my team gravitating to when they go to ask for help? Are they going to the top performer or are they going to someone else within the organization?

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Right. Would you agree with that, Renee? Because that's the question that I would ask next is so who do you promote? So you're saying who who they gravitate towards?

SPEAKER_03 15:01

So I think so. There's two, so we obviously have a lot of experience outside of just the insurance agency. Um we've had better luck finding people totally outside the organization with leadership, uh, a resume, somebody that's been in an organization before with um proven track record of successes, where we have personally had a lot of luck in hiring somebody up from outside to come in and and lead and take that over. I don't know if that's your experience or not, um, or if you're promoting within. What's your experience?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

We've done both. Um, you know, uh 100%. I totally completely agree. Um, you know, I had a mentor of mine one time, he kind of mentioned to me, like, look for who is influencing your team. Have them run a meeting. Like, have them have them run a meeting and don't watch, don't watch the the person that you uh that who's running the meeting, watch everybody else. What is their reaction? How do they react to that person? Um, if they're looking down and they're not engaged, that's very telling. Um, you you you've gotta have somebody that's that's influencing your people already, especially if you're hiring within, because if you don't have that buy-in from them, they are going to scrub struggle as a leader, no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Do you consider production when you're looking at promoting within? How important is that in your decision?

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Absolutely. Um you have to, you almost have to in our industry, right? And so, um, and and it has gotten a little bit easier now that we're a little bit larger, or now that we're larger. Um so we're it can absorb uh production um by by you know replacing it and down the funnel. But um I do remember that moment that you're you're going, oh my goodness, like I can't lose their their production. But here's here's the reality of the situation in my mind now, now that I'm kind of past that point, um you may lose them anyway. If you're not if you're not developing them, and you know, they're gonna become complacent. And so I think it's really important as agency owners that we have like very good conversations with our folks about like what are your aspirations? If if you're not having those conversations with your agents, you are going to lose them. There's there's just too many choices or places for them to go now. Um, so I have those conversations with my agents all of the time. Like, what are your goals? What and and if I'm not developing them on that stuff, shame on me. Because that's really what they're needing from us.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Okay, so I want to drill down on this a little bit because when you have somebody that is your top perfor, your top performer, they have the highest sales and they want to grow. What's the next position that you can promote? What would you put them in? If you're not gonna put them in like the office manager, what is that head of sales? Like, what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

I have seen so I've played around with this actually. Originally, I had them in a little bit of a hybrid model. I don't admit that it's not the best though, because you really don't want your leaders, you know, you don't want somebody who's responsible for you know for overseeing somebody else to be thought of as competition, you know. Like, and and and that was what we we ran into when we installed somebody who was still, you know, producing it. There were, you know, kind of concerns that maybe they were getting different leads or you know, different things. And while they weren't, it was perception, you know, we really have to be careful with that when we're trying to install leaders leadership. So um I like the model where you actually install them as a leader, they're gonna have to work to develop, and they're also gonna have to work on accountability. The other things is taking things off of the agency owner's plate. You know, I measure my leaders and their success all by how much they're able to pull off of my plate so that I can do other things. Um, so so that that's kind of how I've always built out that role is we're not only going to concentrate on developing our producers because we're kind of talking on the sales side. So we're not only gonna develop those producers, we're also going to make sure that everybody's very clear on their goals and we're tracking all of those things and making sure that our trajectory every single month is pointed toward that. Um, but then also, what can you take off of my plate so that I can improve the business on my end? If we can do that, we can support your role.